Man of Steel (2013) - Zack Snyder

[JRibeiro]

Continuando a conversa na BD, li este fim de semana o Crisis On Infinite Earths e está visto que não consigo mesmo atinar com a DC, li inúmeros títulos quando era miúdo e os únicos que gostei foram mesmo o Batman Year One e a saga Invasion.

[Bladder]

Tambem nunca atinei com a DC.

Sempre achei algo exagerados, cartoonescos, mais que a Marvel. Apenas voltei em fins dos anos 80 por causa do Dark Knight Returns, do Year One do Batman, Hellblazer, Swamp Thing, Sandman. Em suma historias da linha Vertigo.

[Darknightsw]

Achei piada. Ponto.

Não é para provocar.

Perspectivas...

por acaso ate me soltou uma gargalhada ... tirando a parte do "how much damage... "

[DarkPhoenix]

Sim, essa "boca foleira" dos danos é que não tem qualquer piada... visto que é uma das bandeiras preferidas de quem não gosta do filme, no meu entender um argumento sem pés nem cabeça.

E já agora, foram 3 e não 2, os Vingadores mais activos ( poderosos o suficiente para ) no ataque aos invasores: Thor, Hulk e Ironman.

[DarkPhoenix]

http://voicesfromkrypton.net/man-of-ste ... mark-waid/

That's just like Mark Waid, isn't it? His whole schtick in JLA and Superman comics was focusing on the superheroes and nobody else. When Grant Morrison created a plethora of villains who would not only challenge Superman and Batman and the Flash and Wonder Woman, but also be menacing and actually pose a credible threat to them, when Mark Waid took over the titles he quickly turned all the plots to be heroes versus heroes, and heroes against themselves, and heroes versus their own weaknesses. His villains is more heroes, who have made some bad choices.

Hell, Kingdom Come is heroes vs heroes. Even Irredeemable is heroes vs heroes. And whenever Waid manages to create some villain, he's so generic, so without personality, that you simply cannot sympathize or like or even care for. The 4D aliens who split the JLA between their superhero identities and their alter egos, the horde of superaliens in Irredeemable, even Lex Luthor in Kingdom Come and Ras Al Ghul in JLA, they only exist to turn the heroes against their own selves.

This is not how a writer writes superheroes. This is how a writes writes about gods.

And I love reading about gods, and I love mythology, but if I want to read mythology I will go read the Twelve Labors of Heracles and the Mahabharata and the Iliad and the Odyssey and the Epic Of Gilgamesh. I won't look for mythology in Superman. This is what bothers me most, that Waid treats Superman like a myth, and he tries to establish a mythos. We. Don't. Need. More. Fake. Myths. It's why Marvel has made more identifiable characters that people can put themselves in their shoes. When you can't identify with somebody, when you can't put yourself in their shoes, you stop caring about them. Superman doesn't need to be a God. He needs to be a superhero. And a superhero is an ordinary person with extraordinary powers, who faces even more extraordinary challenges. Ordinary, extraordinary, extraordinary. Put an extra in the first one, and you've lost the last connection with humanity. You might as well talk about collapsing stars or clouds or protozoa or viruses, and their adventures, then. Nobody. Will. Care.

So let's look at Man Of Steel. I agree there were some heavy flaws in the movie, such as tornadoes being actually more powerful under tunnels than out in the open. Not everybody knows that, it actually takes some beyond-basic knowledge of physics to be aware of it. Then again most of the Kansas villagers probably didn't have that knowledge. So that part was alright, as long as the tornado didn't actually pass over them. (Did they show it passing over them harmlessly? I can't remember)

And the one thing about the Zod Vs Superman explodorama throughout Metropolis could be handled with some extra finesse. Superman could be at least trying to save civilians while they passed through their buildings. If he tried, and Zod stopped him by pulling his arms away or punching his efforts out, it would show that Superman had tried his damnest to save people, and he just couldn't. So his execution of Zod in the end would make even more sense.

But we didn't see any Kryptonian see things in slow motion, did we? We saw them using X-Ray vision, and seeing a wider spectrum of colors, and using heat rays, but no slow motion vision. When Superman and the Kryptonians flew, when they ran superfast, when they jumped, when they dashed from one target to another? There is nothing to show that their vision was less blurry than our own under similar circumstances. Sure, they could move fast, but they couldn't see fast enough to follow. So how would the Man Of Steel be able to see all the people inside the buildings, so he could try to save them? He couldn't.

And the battle became more believable that way. Alan Moore, an arguably much better writer than Waid, tackled it in Miracleman. Miracleman and his foe, Kid Miracleman, start the fight in the middle of a beautiful metropolis. One second later, not only the city, but a path across the globe, are in total and utter ruins. Miracleman won, but what seemed like hours of fighting to the two superhumans, due to their superspeed and comparable perception of slow motion vision, was actually a second in real time. If the world moves slower, you move faster ALL the time. Zod's battle would have lasted a minute, tops.

And Zod was getting more powerful by the minute. Here was a guy who was genetically bred and trained to control his body to the upmost and to protect the Kryptonian heritage and values and way of life. And now there is no heritage to protect, no values, no way of life, no Kryptonians, except for this backwards purposeless idiot who simply shares the same DNA as Zod, but none of the soul of Krypton.

In Zod's eyes, Superman is no more Kryptonian than humans are. He just looks the part. Imagine a hypothetical room where there is a hypothetical button, and if it's pressed humanity as we know it dies forever except for you and the one who pressed the button. Now imagine a young, deadbeat, idiot, uncultured, uncouth product of an unnatural birth, comes and presses the button on purpose, because he doesn't like it that humanity doesn't live in caves and die like flies without even fire for protection, like our prehistoric ancestors used to. And he's okay with it, because his friends the cavemen will live through humanity's demise as well. There has been another film where the protagonist makes an asshole decision like that, Charlton Heston's second Planet Of The Apes movie. He literally explodes the planet because his buddies can't have it. How do you react to that?

Zod went nuts about it. He was already going nuts because of the atmosphere overwhelming his senses, the knowledge that his life was now meaningless and that his world was gone forever, because an asshole chose cavemen instead of his own people, it drove him off the edge. Can you really be mad at him? He was completely incompatible with humanity to begin with, now he was also insane. And he had decided to kill humanity as retribution.

And how can Superman, the Man Of Steel, resolve that problem? How could he solve the problem of a madman hellbent on the destruction of everything he loved, a madman who was a direct threat to him when he WASN'T even using his full capabilities, and was now getting even more powerful?

Superman was raised in Kansas as a farm boy. His only advantage over Zod was being able to not be overwhelmed by the atmosphere and all the new powers it bestowed upon him. Once that edge was gone, a battle between Superman and Zod would have an outcome similar to the average farmboy in a street fight with MMA fighter Anderson Silva. Actually this is the perfect metaphor: Imagine a farm boy in a caged match with Anderson Silva. A.S. has a bag over his head, barely seeing anything beyond little specs of light throughout some tiny holes, with speakers screaming loud music directly in his ears. and he can't jump. The farmboy keeps pounding at him, but A.S. can take the hits while he's trying to take off the sack that's blocking his vision. If the farmboy lets A.S. take off the bag, he doesn't stand a chance. They're both humans, they share the same potential, but A.S. has trained all his life to fight, and the other human has barely used his fists in junior high school fights.

The choice is clearer now, isn't it?

As for Superman, the Man Of Steel, he sees it exactly like this. And it is devastating him. This is not a John Byrne execution of helpless criminals. It's a kill-or-everybody die choice. He has to do it, and he does it, reluctantly, and it's killing him inside. It's what will drive him to the No Killing Oath that made no real sense in comics, because here he's had to kill to save his loved ones, but the one he's killed wasn't evil, he was just incompatible, and insane, and uncontrollable. It's what Superman would do. Not as Waid would write him, but as what most people would, given the set of restrictions in the film.

I can live with that. Waiting for the sequel.

[JRibeiro]

Por acaso o nível da destruição causada pela luta entre o SH e Zod fez-me lembrar o Supergod, na medida em que a existência de super seres nesse universo causaria uma tal destruição que seria inviável. Quem não leu Supergod do Warren Ellis não sabe o que perde, para mim é a herdeira de Watchmen na desconstrução do género dos Super Heróis.

[DarkPhoenix]

"Where were you on that one Jarvis?"

[Bladder]

Sim, o Supergod.

Boa premissa.

Se o poder corrompe, um poder absoluto corrompe absolutamente.

O Super-homem é convincente nos seus ideais porque foi criado por um casal idealista e terra-a-terra. Se bem me lembro do filme MOS, ele tinha 2 opções, ou proteger a Terra ou governá-la, escolha indiferente para Jor-El.

É necessário maturidade para gerir o poder, o Dr. Manhattan não é apenas um ser poderoso, no seu âmago está o cientista Osterman, alguém vivido e maduro. Não acredito que Osterman se tivesse tornado o bom Doutor se não houvesse algo de diferente nele, aquela fome incansável de conhecimento e de se maravilhar com sistemas complexos e uma força de vontade muito grande, ele recriou-se a si mesmo.

Alguém imaturo, inseguro, com músculos na cabeça invariavelmente penderia para a violência, o oportunismo e a destruição.

[JRibeiro]

Sim, o Supergod.

Boa premissa.

Se o poder corrompe, um poder absoluto corrompe absolutamente.

O Super-homem é convincente nos seus ideais porque foi criado por um casal idealista e terra-a-terra. Se bem me lembro do filme MOS, ele tinha 2 opções, ou proteger a Terra ou governá-la, escolha indiferente para Jor-El.

É necessário maturidade para gerir o poder, o Dr. Manhattan não é apenas um ser poderoso, no seu âmago está o cientista Osterman, alguém vivido e maduro. Não acredito que Osterman se tivesse tornado o bom Doutor se não houvesse algo de diferente nele, aquela fome incansável de conhecimento e de se maravilhar com sistemas complexos e uma força de vontade muito grande, ele recriou-se a si mesmo.

Alguém imaturo, inseguro, com músculos na cabeça invariavelmente penderia para a violência, o oportunismo e a destruição.

No caso do Supergod nem tem a ver com a corrupção pelo poder, tem mais a ver com o facto de um super ser seria tão alienígena e diferente de um humano comum que o surgimento destas criaturas levaria inevitavelmente à extinção da espécie humana. Vejam o caso de Krishna, criado pela Índia para salvar o seu país, o que ele faz? Mata 90% da população dado que o excesso de população é o principal problema do subcontinente, mas depois começa a resolver os restantes problemas da Índia e o país seria muito melhor para os sobreviventes se o super ser Iraquiano não tivesse chegado e feito porcaria. O nível de poder destes super seres é tão grande que na maioria dos casos a sua criação causou destruição nas redondezas.

[Bladder]

Não era o Supergod...

Confundi-me.

Existe um comic book, agora não me lembro do nome, de um jovem que recebe poderes, torna-se omnisciente e acaba por abusar deles, esta trama dura durante várias décadas.

É uma obra algo existencialista sobre os malefícios do poder e da insanidade.

O estilo é o dos comics Indy, não de super-heróis.

Edit: Finalmente encontrei, incrível quantos livros têm "god" no título.

Esta obra é excelente, recomendo.

[Argaroth01]

Eu sempre gostei mais do Universo DC, com o seu extenso Multiverso (e que saudades da série "Elseworlds") e personagens maiores do que a vida. Eu costumo dizer que tanto a DC como a Marvel dão duas visões diferentes mas complementares dos super-heróis: o conceito da DC é o caminho do normal para a deidade, enquanto a Marvel faz o inverso. Tomando como exemplos os personagens mais emblemáticos de cada uma das casas, Super-Homem e Homem-Aranha: o primeiro é um personagem que praticamente não tem nenhum conflito interior (algo a cujo o epíteto "Homem do Amanhã" faz certa referência), que se torna um símbolo do potencial a que a humanidade pode almejar. O segundo é um herói em construção, cheio de dilemas e problemas mas virtuoso na forma como lida com eles.

E quanto a desconstruções de super-heróis, convém não esquecer o avô de tudo isso (espero que a Marvel resolva os imbróglios legais que envolvem as histórias do Alan Moore e do Neil Gaiman e que conceda a este último a hipótese de terminar o último volume das histórias e que recompile tudo):



Todas as possibilidades foram aqui exploradas, desde o poder absoluto que corrompe (o embate entre Marvelman e Kid Marvelman faz parecer o final de "Man of Steel" uma brincadeira) até ao desapego emocional que sentiria um quase-deus perante a restante humanidade (e que Alan Moore voltou a explorar com o Dr. Manhattan em "Watchmen"). Quando a série passou para as mãos do Neil Gaiman, este focou a narrativa no impacto que um personagem com aquele poderio teria no mundo à sua volta, tentando criar uma utopia.

[Darknightsw]

"Where were you on that one Jarvis?"

MUAHAHAHAH :) ,,, perfeito era o Tony Stark a entrar numa daquelas belas apresentações em publico com o seu belo fato MArk 8 ou 9 2x ou 3x mais poderoso que o suposto Mark 7 e o Clark Kent estar lá na primeira fila e "sem querer" espirrar e escangalhava a carcaça toda ao Tony Stark :)

Just mi two cents ..

Just Kidding :) , eu ate gosto muito do Iron man e da personagem do Tony Stark .

Mas realmente se o Nick Fury tinha ligado para o Super Homem nos Avengers em vez de chamar aquela tropa toda ,tinham poupado imenso nos "Hamburgers after credits"... e a malta em NY nem se tinha apercebido que existiam Extra Terrestres ..

Mas também era complicado fazer o filme dos Avengers com ajuda do SH .. o filme só durava uns 10 segundos :)

Desculpem la a maluquice mas hoje deu-me para isto :) , essas fotos dão asas a minha imaginação ..

[JRibeiro]

Isso só iria fazer com que o Thanos entrasse em cena com a suas Jóias do Infinito, o Superhomem não durava mais que 5 segundos.

[DarkPhoenix]

Thanos.... ahhhhh, a "cópia" do Darkseid!

[Hellz7]

com um super-homem assim tao poderoso vai ser dificil fazer um filme da JL. e complicado arrajarem adversarios que o batmam possa combater e que sejam tambem uma ameaça ao super-homem .