Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice ( 2016 ) - Zack Snyder

[waltsouza]

Concordo com o No Angel e com o Samwise.

A ideia com que fiquei é que se tratarão de engenharias financeiras com o fim de isentar de impostos e de comissões, o lucro dos filmes, eventualmente transferindo-o para outras empresas do grupo que prestam os tais serviços de distribuição, marketing, etc.

Sim mas não só. Por exemplo, imagina que está no contrato que o ator com mais renome no elenco vai receber 30 milhões das receitas do filme. Um mero exemplo e que é bem realista (já aconteceu e até com vallores mais altos). A produtora já sabe que 30 milhões da receita total do filme já tem destino. E isto é um pequenino exemplo dentro de um filme, com um simples contrato.

[Lorde X]

Concordo com o No Angel e com o Samwise.

A ideia com que fiquei é que se tratarão de engenharias financeiras com o fim de isentar de impostos e de comissões, o lucro dos filmes, eventualmente transferindo-o para outras empresas do grupo que prestam os tais serviços de distribuição, marketing, etc.

Sim mas não só. Por exemplo, imagina que está no contrato que o ator com mais renome no elenco vai receber 30 milhões das receitas do filme. Um mero exemplo e que é bem realista (já aconteceu e até com vallores mais altos). A produtora já sabe que 30 milhões da receita total do filme já tem destino. E isto é um pequenino exemplo dentro de um filme, com um simples contrato.

Sim e essa será uma das despesas justificadas e transparentes, mas nalguns casos da lista atrás citada, parece-me verdadeiramente escandaloso que filmes que custaram (comparativamente) tostões e renderam milhões (ex: "My Big Fat Greek Wedding cost $6 million to make and made over $350 million at the box office, and yet lost $20 million"), acabem por não dar lucro... Parece-me que aqui tem de haver algo mais... Fez-me lembrar o caso de clubes desportivos portugueses que, não obstante facturarem milhões em vendas, vêem o seu passivo constantemente aumentar... Mas atenção que não quero levar a conversa para certo desporto o qual sei que é um tema cuja discussão não é permitida neste fórum.

[waltsouza]

Sim e essa será uma das despesas justificadas e transparentes, mas nalguns casos da lista atrás citada, parece-me verdadeiramente escandaloso que filmes que custaram (comparativamente) tostões e renderam milhões (ex: "My Big Fat Greek Wedding cost $6 million to make and made over $350 million at the box office, and yet lost $20 million"), acabem por não dar lucro... Parece-me que aqui tem de haver algo mais... Fez-me lembrar o caso de clubes desportivos portugueses que, não obstante facturarem milhões em vendas, vêem o seu passivo constantemente aumentar... Mas atenção que não quero levar a conversa para certo desporto o qual sei que é um tema cuja discussão não é permitida neste fórum.

Podemos levar essa conversa do desporto para o tópico dos Desabafos (offtopic), é só tu quereres.

Sim, existem as duas vertentes, as despesas mais transparentes e as menos, e por acaso admito que foquei-me em demasia nas mais "transparentes".Admito que também fui inluenciado por um artigo que fala de divervos casos de contratos feitos em determinados filmes que obrigaram os produtores a despender boa parte das receitas amealhadas.

[Lorde X]

Podemos levar essa conversa do desporto para o tópico dos Desabafos (offtopic), é só tu quereres.

Por muitas razões (inclusivé essas engenharias financeiras que fazem desaparecer milhões), ao longo dos anos fui perdendo o gosto por esse desporto em particular. O nascimento da minha filha também contribuiu pois dou-lhe sempre primazia na escolha do canal de TV que quer ver. Ou seja, em minha casa, normalmente a TV está quase sempre sintonizada no Canal Panda ou no Panda Bigs! Depois de ela se deitar é que posso dizer que o comando é meu!..

Quanto ao mundo "mafioso" da produção de filmes em Hollywood, o Mulholand Drive (está no meu TOP10) foi bem invocado pelo Samwise.

[PanterA]

Eu tinha alguma curiosidade pela DC do filme, mas pelo leio não vai ser bem aquilo que esperava inicialmente. Os 30 minutos é apenas para lá meter mais explosões por metro quadrado e mudar o rating do filme de PG-13 para R. Compor os problemas de narrativa, desenvolvimento e tudo mais parece uma utopia.

Estou chocado, simplesmente chocado. Mas isto é uma máfia, ou o que? Pra onde vai o dinheiro todo?

Vou investigar melhor este assunto...

Tinha-te acabado de dizer que para o filme ter lucro precisava de passar a barreira dos 800M$. Mas passaste o meu post em branco. :P

[No Angel]

Eu tinha alguma curiosidade pela DC do filme, mas pelo leio não vai ser bem aquilo que esperava inicialmente. Os 30 minutos é apenas para lá meter mais explosões por metro quadrado e mudar o rating do filme de PG-13 para R. Compor os problemas de narrativa, desenvolvimento e tudo mais parece uma utopia.

Estou chocado, simplesmente chocado. Mas isto é uma máfia, ou o que? Pra onde vai o dinheiro todo?

Vou investigar melhor este assunto...

Tinha-te acabado de dizer que para o filme ter lucro precisava de passar a barreira dos 800M$. Mas passaste o meu post em branco. :P

Não eu li, mas achei estranho isso dos 800 milhões, e pelos vistos até é mais que isso... eu acho estas quantias de dinheiro exorbitantes . É incrivel a diferença entre o cinema e a televisão, hoje em dia as séries tem tanta qualidade (ou mais) que os filmes, mas são feitas com muito menos dinheiro e não precisam de fazer 900 milhões pra terem lucro, e talvez por isso mesmo os canais de televisão possam arriscar muito mais e explorar coisas que os blockbusters não podem...

[waltsouza]

Outro pormenor que já passou em artigos por aqui, e que tem a ver com tema das bilheteiras, é que a Warner Bros. não estaria à espera que este filme tivesse quedas tão abruptas nas bilheteiras (quedas de 70/80% em poucos dias). A ideia deles inicial era o filme chegar a mil milhões de dólares nas receitas (e talvez ultrapassar) mas pelos vistos não vão conseguir. E estão bastante desapontados. A ponto de existirem mudanças de planos em relação a próximos filmes (que não tem a ver com este Batman vs Superman).

http://www.inquisitr.com/2967653/warner ... s-to-come/

[DarkPhoenix]

Valha-nos o Conan!
Tanto talento desperdiçado....

[DarkPhoenix]

Exempting Watchmen, Snyder has always been more about providing striking imagery than giving it context, and that usually worked in movies that didn't need to be held in some orbit of realism. We don't care why folks would fight next to a mile-drop cliff in 300; it looks amazing and awful-silly things happen in war. But, about 46 minutes into Batman v Superman, (after a series of other out-of-context vignettes) Kal-El floats down to save a family stranded to the roof of their house, immersed in a biblical flood. There's three people on this roof, a middle-aged couple and their adolescent daughter...and they share this roof-space with a puppy...and a room-wide ‘S’, (Hope/Superman logo) in white paint. Who thinks of all things, as their property gets consumed by an effluvium of flood-water, to get 5 buckets of paint and a brush to take to the roof? Maybe the dog did it. More likely though, a shameless screenwriter under the instruction of a witless director, out of a compulsion to create cheap religious symbolism without earning even that first.

In a similar fashion, after serendipitously learning about a factory fire off a television, Superman flies off to Mexico to.....retrieve a little girl trapped inside the structure. Like any seasoned middle-schooler will tell ya, 1)One of the things that will kill a little girl in a fire is the under-oxygenated environment there in, because molecular oxygen facilitates combustion, it will get used up faster than she can breathe it in. 2)The other thing is the accumulation of Carbon Monoxide (CO) from incomplete combustion of carbonaceous stuff in there. Carbon Monoxide has a higher affinity for hemoglobin than Oxygen does (about 250x)....so even at equivalent partial pressures, the equilibrium will shift to form more Carboxyhemoglobin (HbCO) which can't very well carry oxygen to tissues. 3)The oxygen partial pressure is even lower than normal (this being a structural fire)...so she definitely is suffering from asphyxiation (by the time a crowd and a T.V. Crew got there). 4)The CO-binding is even worse in her myocardium because CO has an even greater affinity for cardiac myoglobin. Her little heart is dying even faster than the rest of her. She needs to be taken to a hospital. Before this, her vital signs and GCS need to be checked.
So....what does Superman do when he gets there.....he floats her out of the building, and--so they can feel-up his costume in a Renaissance Painting Simulacrum--he sets her down at the center of a crowd; from one under-oxygenated environment to another. That Snyder's Superman as a superhero isn't aware of such crucial bits of information (how many fires has he been to by now?) says things about his intellect Jerry Siegel wouldn't want to hear. If you're going to sell the audience one of the oldest to-the-rescue stock situations in the book, at least get it right. Symbolism only works when reality doesn't have to stop churning beneath its surface.

World-personalization is a necessary component of effective story-telling, and Nolan excelled at this. But, let's not compare Sucker Punch to The Prestige. That's unjust, so how about, Michael Bay in his original Bad Boys movie. Props had embellishments and little scratches of affection that made them look lived-in and not just set-up for the movie.You would look at a car and deduce how it had gotten there, what a character had done to it and what it meant to them. Everything Snyder shows here is so unnaturally glossy it hurts to look at. That's not what we go to see in Blockbusters. Without a chord of intimacy between us and the characters, them and their props, all the carnage in which either gets destroyed looses significance. Snyder assumes because we've seen the Batmobile in comic books...and he's piggybacking off Nolan's masterful trilogy, we'll be drawn by tropism to all that flashes around it.
The Tumbler Chase in Batman Begins, first of all had emotional stakes; Batman needs to get Rachel to the Batcave before she suffers irreversible side effects from Crane's phobogenic hallucinogen, he needs to do it without killing cops. Snyder has Ben Affleck's Batman chase a bunch of Kryptonite, and kill as many mooks as he can. What's so damned exciting about that, to us or even to Snyder? Faceless subordinates in buffed-up vehicles go belly-up...and no one cares, why should we? Again, in Nolan's chase, you could tell is was a heavy vehicle crushing down on Cruisers which (at times) were visibly unoccupied for safety, but it still revved us up with the visceral thrill of practical effects.
Here, we get weightless Computer-Generated car crashes with dubbed-over, mean-spirited Wilhelm screams...two things we've been inundated with since the late 90s and 1951 respectively. Is that what audiences deserve, in a DC Superhero movie, a Batman, versus Superman film? Snyder thinks so.
In Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, there's a moment, after a fight with Luke Skywalker in which a fast-falling door has just killed off his ferocious reptilian adversary...and its handler walks to it in teary-eyed agitation; somebody just offed his pet. Ra's al Ghul's house burning down in Batman Begins = Emotional Resonance. Random buildings stentoriously exploding in this feature-video ≥ Ophthalmic Migraine.
A simple moment such as having a mook obsessively lick his finger and swipe the dirt off his windshield (even Big Smoke back in 2005, a video game character, loved his car in GTA San Andreas) before the chase would have cured the lack of physical gravity in those scenes...they'd be alive with the weight of dark comedy.


The next level on which the movie fails is a self-betraying felo de se.. In his earlier comic book movies, Snyder was a top-notch visual filmmaker; shot-to-shot, Watchmen was one of the best edited features of 2009. He had a visual vocabulary on that film: Its themes were too numerous that putting them across using dialogue would buckle it, so he chose a device; the lateral tracking shot. He'd occupy one part of the frame with a telling (mostly ironic) detail and dolly across to reveal his characters' emotional relation to it. Consider Rorschach breaking into Dr. Manhattan's lab/"Rockefeller Military Research Center". It's outrageously simple in its presentation: The camera starts from the right, where we see some guards standing next to an armored vehicle and moves left, revealing a chainlink fence in the shallow focus foreground..eventually capturing Rorschach standing ahead of it..before suddenly rack-focusing to show a man-sized bolt-cut hole in it, both sub-framing him (symbolic) and explaining his method. Bravura.

Unfortunately in Batman v Superman, Larry Fong's cinematography, to be undeservedly nice, is amateurishly atrocious. Dim (and undramatically) lit interiors are violated by bright lights with no sense of color, zoom lenses are used to defile our sense of physical space. One of the techniques Akira Kurosawa popularized was the use of weather (and other elements) to give a scene a textural emotion. The wind would often howl when a character got miffed, and flames would rise if he got pissed. A drizzle would caress them when they needed comforting. Zack Snyder attempts this by putting enough rain in such scenes to poke bullet holes in his characters' coats. There's no sense of proportion.


The editing (the intra-scene shot-to-shot, not the macro-editing, scene to scene....that is too artless to warrant inspection) is without an understanding of rhythm. He'll cut to wider shot at the delivery the most dramatic line in a scene because it, I suppose, looks cooler. He'll go to an over-the-shoulder shot when the dialogue is more important to the character saying it than whomever's in the poorly-acted reaction shot. Even worse, there's a protruding presence of bad continuity of content, on a gestural and prop level. These are things you expect in a C-student's movie, not a 250 million dollar project.


The hand-to-hand fight scenes aren't half-well-done, they look planned-out by an overweight ten year old who paid off the scrawny kids to sit and take his bullying. The desert-bound dream sequence is nightmarishly effective for this very reason; costumed-suckers just standing there while Batman beats them off one by one implies, them being figments, they bend to his will. With this in mind however, the bestial brutality of his attacks terrifyingly suggests a self-destructive schizophrenia. Watching them gain the upper-hand on him upon arrival of the humanoid pterodactyls from the sky smartly represents the ''rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men....cruel.'' That sequence is masterful. It's the one thing in the feature-video that could have been in the rough cut of a Nolan super-film. Of course, as though bowing to auto-corrective equilibrium, Snyder follows it up with Ezra Miller as The Flash doing worse acting than I ever saw in the worst high school dramas; some actors just shouldn't yell. But hey, the dream semi-sequence is wonderfully completed in one take.

Similar fight-logic is deadening when used in the real-world rescue of Martha Kent: As Batman cracks spinal columns and disarticulates all kinds of joints, the mooks just stand there, howl in almost-choral unison (without the tonal variety of a choir; they all yell in the same voice), throw sissified lilli-punches and wait their turn, all the while Snyder throwing his camera around as if to shorten our attention spans. Having been exposed to the Mad Max: Fury Road less than 12 months ago, a piece that is certainly one of the 8 best edited films of all time, such crazed antics as Snyder uses will never work on contemporary audiences again. I out-yawned my jaw through these.


Then come the big loud Super vs Doomsday fly-bys. Think about this: there's a moment in Inception, where Christopher Nolan cuts from a close-up of a tea cup vibrating in a restaurant, to a Grand Establishing Shot of the city block imploding. An edit like that transcends the cinematic and slips into the carnal. It gives you a sense of scale, intimacy with a visual detail in a scene before its obliteration, and the explosions in a movie like this mean something, the clatter of destruction is sensibly calculated, and the images remain memorable. A similar more organic effect is seen in Lawrence of Arabia where Peter O'toole blows out a match in close-up...and there's a cut to a vast, empty desert-scape glowing with realgar auroral sunlight. You could mine 50 Iconic Images out of Inception.....Batman v Superman (!) is 8 minutes longer, derives from ripe source material and doesn't contain one. Why?

Here's how Snyder stages Doomsday versus Superman:
1. V.Wide Shot of Doomsday staring Superman down at the Superman Statue.
2. V.Wide Shot in which Doomsday punches out Superman, yanks him from out of some rubble and tosses him through his statue across the street into a monochromatic building, which unconvincingly shatters, also in a V.Wide Shot.
3. V.Wide Shot of Doomsday leaping off the ground to LexCorp Towers, because a helicopter search light is distracting him from the fight.
4. High Angle V.Wide Shot of Doomsday landing on top of the Tower.
5. Randomly intercut V.Wide Shots and Wide Shots of Doomsday getting bombed by a flock of choppers...and it all blows up into a dome-shaped energy surge.

The shots are ALL ON THE SAME SCALE. Each one of them means as much and as little to the story. Doomsday has less personality than any Orc with two lines, we have no idea who is in the choppers or down on the streets. It's all sterile flatly presented digital carnage, only it's less involving than a video game, because at least then you have an entry point.
In The Dark Knight, during the Slaughter-is-the-Best-Medicine chase, not only are subsequent shots always on a different level of detail, everyone involved has a unique facet to them, right down to the comic relief sharing a van with Gordon; he says ''Lower 5th ? we'll be like turkeys on Thanksgiving down there!'', and ''We can't wait here, we'll be like sitting ducks!'', avian humor is his thing. He must have a story about all that.

Here, we get as many CGI choppers as possible because...how cool would it be!!! Not-at-all. Snyder's 5 digital shots probably cost as much as the whole Restaurant Sequence in Inception...yet because a natural filmmaker will instinctively construct his mise-en-scène around narrative details, thus have a cutting rhythm, Nolan created a series of images that are musical in their relation.

What's the greatest movie scene with lotsa-choppers in it? Yeah, you're right. The Ride of the Valkyries attack in Apocalypse Now.
We're acquainted with the guys in the choppers, so how does Ford Coppola humanize their targets down on the ground in less than minute of screen time? By making them studies in Behavioral Observation. The music from in-bound airborne speakers is supposed to illicit fear, which it does in the adults, and that's to be expected....but then there's the little kid that's fascinated by the grandeur of it all. That minute moment supplies the spectacle with a moral direction. Coppola both exhilarates us and critics the dispassion at the core of our end-pleasure at on-screen deaths.

Yet Snyder denies us any such intellectual pivots during his entire finale. In combating Doomsday, we have a fight as speciesism-simplistic as a boat of anonymous men battling the sea. We root for them because of altruism but are we interested in the battle, or can we look away until it reaches a foregone outcome? Snyder prefers the latter. Unlike the sea which can have a temperament, Doomsday is only an unbridled force of nature. In the Comic Books, Doomsday mass-murders out of intrinsic motivation; to achieve his invincibility, he has suffered death innumerable times and evolved with each death to be immune to its cause. This kindles in him an inextinguible hate of all forms of life. Snyder denies him such complexity; he just wants to kill Superman because Lex Luthor has beef with Superman. This is only a more simplistic version of the ruse he tried, starting a death-fight between Batman and Superman. At least then, his machinations had the illusion of psychological depth, he appealed to the inadequacies and insecurities of the characters. Because Doomsday has been created minus a psychological framework......the entire fight scene has zero emotional stakes, we know: Wonder Woman will live to star in her 2017 movie, Batman isn't going to die in his reboot feature-video, Superman has to back for Justice League (perhaps half-a-dozen alternative arcs for that), and we don't know a thing about Doomsday. Even the threat of human collateral damage is empty. What a way to end a Batman v Superman feature..!

It fails to work even on a superficial entertainment level, because of its cinematic shortcomings.
In Mad Max: Fury Road, George Miller goes beyond the sensory and dips into our psyches during the Rock Rider set-piece by employing the Kuleshov effect:
As it begins, before we even see the Rock Riders, his camera tracks fast into the faces of Max and Furiosa, flustered with fear and looking off to the RIGHT side of the War Rig. He moves further to the left side of the War Rig.. and tracks fast into the faces of the Five Wives, looking even more scared, past us off-screen to the LEFT. THEN HE CUTS TO what they see... demoniacal bikers bouncing bestially towards them, running blood-colored dust off the sun-baked desert ground.
1)Our characters' faces. 2)Their assailants.
As the balletic set-piece begins, with only 3 shots, Miller and his editor (Sixel) have taught our brains that the War Rig is surrounded, and our hearts to fulminate with fear at the prospect of getting fried alive in a blistering desert heat wave by orange fireballs. That's how you draw your audience emotionally into an action scene. When the assault begins, he surgically cuts between the most relevant details at altering rhythms...[wide]a gun firing (in the same shot as its target), [medium close-up]a character cowering in fear, [close-up]a gun being reloaded, a moving wide shot with five bikes and the War Rig in it...one of the bikes leaping off the ground, a bike continuing its trajectory after a rider is shot falls and off.

Snyder just air-horns his action scene all at the same frequency we want to block our ears and toss him off the stage. This keeps on happening during the rest of his 30-minute, incompetently-colored, dimly-lit, zero-scaled vomitorium of digital effects.
Despite what Snyder and his ilk probably think, cinematic editing isn't ''things you throw in for da cinephiles'', the way an Easter Egg works. Tweaks like scaling and narrative focus are what make all levels of attentive audiences and critics consider The Dark Knight, Inception, Apocalypse Now and Fury Road to be some of the greatest films in their genres ever made; they were made to be forever rewatchable, yet Snyder just wants the money out of your pocket...snatch and run. The audience, Batman and Superman deserve much better than he can do.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2975590/boa ... 877695?p=1

[waltsouza]

Batman Vs Superman: Warner pode lançar versão estendida nos cinema



Após grupo de fãs promoverem uma petição para pedir a versão estendida de Batman Vs Superman: A Origem Da Justiça nos cinemas, o Comic Book afirma que o estúdio pode atender ao apelo do público. Entretanto, esse não seria o único motivo, mas principalmente aumentar a bilheteria da produção.

A versão deve ser voltada para o público mais adulto (maiores de 18 anos) e terá cerca de 30 minutos de material extra, podendo até incluir a cena de Jena Malone como Batgirl. Segundo a publicação, o filme estendido pode chegar aos cinemas antes mesmo do atual sair de cartaz. Tudo isso para garantir que a arrecadação chegue a marca de US$ 1 bilhão no mundo.

Quem gostou do filme provavelmente ficará curioso para ver as cenas inéditas. O grande problema está naqueles que foram ao cinema, mas se decepcionaram e não pretendem ver a nova versão, fazendo com que o tiro saia pela culatra.

O bom é que a versão estendida trará mais clareza à trama. O fato de ter classificação para maiores de 18 anos também é um atrativo para aqueles que esperam um filme mais maduro e cheio de ação.

https://www.cineclick.com.br/noticias/b ... os-cinemas

Cá para mim isto já estava tudo planeado. Primeiro lançam a versão "normal" e depois, consoante as receitas, viram-se para o plano B, que é voltar a lançar o filme nos cinemas, esticando-o até às 3 horas de duração. Já nem esperam pelo DVD/Blu-Ray "Directors Cut".

[waltsouza]

Batman Vs Superman bate a bilheteria de Homem de Ferro 1 nos Estados Unidos

https://www.cineclick.com.br/noticias/b ... dos-unidos

[JRibeiro]

Pequeno pormenor que o HF 1 é de 2008

[waltsouza]

Pequeno pormenor que o HF 1 é de 2008

Sim, mas 2008 não está assim tão longe, não se está a comparar com nenhum filme com 20 anos, ou mais.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id ... an2015.htm

Acaba por ser o resto do mundo a tramar a Warner Bros.
Eu também li que eles estariam à espera de ultrapassar a fasquia dos mil milhões de receitas no filme, e decerto não estariam a contar "apenas" com 500 milhões fora dos E.U.A.

[JRibeiro]

o facto do filme ter apanhado uma sova monumental da crítica não deve ter ajudado, teve uma das maiores quedas de sempre no segundo fim de semana, o Capitão america civil war deve ter um resultado melhor

[PanterA]

Fala-se que pode sacar perto de 180M$ no domestic só no dia de estreia. Acredito que seja filme para chegar perto dos 1B$ ou mesmo passa-los.